Blade contact with the ice?

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Franklin	Blade contact with the ice?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 4 (12/07/05 03:37:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hi all, Has there been any research on the blade surface/ice contact area? The consensus now seems to be that it should be as polished as possible, and the edges as sharp as possible. Skis have gone from being as smooth and flat as possible to having a certain structure, water adhesion was seen to brake speed, apparently the Norwegians found this out around the 1994 Olympics. Skin suits have Nike's patented shark skin surface too. I saw an article today with Lasse Sætre, a long tracker, mentioning that a lot of research awaits to be done in steel structure and water dispersal. Has anybody looked at this before? Dutch, Americans, Bont? (I just thought Bont might have since they are into blade mechanics etc...) tia+br Franklin -first post! :-)
Alexander Bont	Re: Blade contact with the ice?	#1	[-]
Posts: 2850 (12/07/05 04:08:31) Godzilla Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Welcome to the forum Franklin. We have only just reached our first goal of making the fastest blade in the world this season, and we are now looking to more advanced methods of manufacturing blades. I am working on a few projects at the moment but the water adhesion wasn¡¯t one of them. It sounds interesting, please post the article if possible. alx
Franklin	Re: Blade contact with the ice?	#2	[-]
Posts: 4 (12/07/05 04:41:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	One of my skating friends has been a skating/skiing/sports freak for 50 years and we were discussing the polishing of blades, I have only been skating a little for two seasons now. He said that during the 94 Olympics cars were driving back and forth between Trondheim and Lillehammer with skis in the back, apparently the university in Trondheim was playing around with different soles and preparations. The uni in Trondheim has previously researched ski jumping and slalom, that I know about. I have heard about skate oil, but it is not allowed anymore, and it didn't seem to have much impact? The article I refer to is here: www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=298678 Basically he is talking about his new "speed weapons", both his boot and a "strut" between his boot and the blade has been lightened with three holes, saving 20 grams per boot. But in the first paragraph he is quoted: "It is exciting and good that they dare do something about it. There is a lot to be gained in different steels and structure of the steel, amongst other things drainage of the water. It is not researched well." What boots & blades does he skate on? Viking? br Franklin
mikevanerp	Re: Blade contact with the ice?	#3	[-]
Posts: 911 (12/07/05 05:21:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Waves Hi Franklin!
barryboy70	LT blade evolution	#4	[-]
Posts: 85 (12/07/05 08:01:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree that aside from improvements to the clap mechanism and the general architecture of the blade/tube there is still much R&D that can be done into radically different blade designs. For example, I would like to see some research done into designing a blade that can allow a functional double push on ice without unnecessarily increasing friction or compromising the contact area between blade and ice. (Slight) Double push on ice IS possible (at higher speeds), but because of the rocker the blade is simply not maneuverable enough to arc back out after an underpush. Plus, the more extreme angle of the blade means that the outside edge digs into the ice excessively. Perhaps a blade with a sidecut, or maybe even a thicker blade with a hollow grind similar to a hockey blade. I don't really know, but I think it is possible to engineer a blade that can allow an effective double push withouth compromising some of the other important qualities. The other concern with dp on ice is that during the underpush the body weight is very far towards the heel of the blade. The body weight would then have to move forward during the end of the regular push in order to engage the clap. I suspect that in the future blade design with me more heavily customized to the technique of a skater, because right now the actual blade architecture more or less forces the skater to adapt his/her technique to the limitations of the blade... Interesting stuff... B.
dho001	good topic	#5	[-]
Posts: 1 (12/07/05 13:03:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I know a blade that has exactly the steering properties that Barry is looking for .... Cheers, dh
JKolmo	Re: good topic	#6	[-]
Posts: 71 (12/07/05 14:06:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Interesting stuff, og hei Franklin! /Johan K
Franklin	Re: good topic	#7	[-]
Posts: 4 (12/07/05 14:22:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey, lotsa people I know! Or rather that I have met once... :-) Hi Mike! Hi Barry! Hei Johan! Interesting discussion so far in a way, but there is a lot to be researched. The simplest might be the best, but there is value in finding out what doesn't work too. How about an elliptical rocker, or a spilt rocker? Would that help or hinder DPing on ice? Nowadays it's just a simple radius. A hollow, like on hockey skates, might lift the skate up as water is compressed in the hollow, giving less friction? In this day of acid or electrical etching it might not be that far off. Anybody try titanium blades? Difficult to sharpen I guess, but might keep their sharpness longer? Same with ceramic blades? I read about a nano material that repels water, that might be interesting as a blade coating. Oh well, nighty night from Oslo... :-) br Franklin
JimW53186	Re: good topic	#8	[-]
Posts: 193 (12/07/05 14:36:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Regarding hollow, coatings, or similar, remember that ice skaters sharpen blades often, sometimes before each race. So whatever is done to the bottom of the blade must be repeatable by each skater easily and cheaply rinkside. The alternative could be something that would be permanent, but I think it difficult to make something as thin as the sharp edge of an ice blade that would withstand all the things that blades run into, forever.
Franklin	Re: good topic	#9	[-]
Posts: 4 (12/07/05 14:53:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hi Jim, Well, depends on how long lasting it is. Hockey skates now come with removable blades, just thin very hard metal runners imbedded in a plastic holder. Om long track that could be carbon fibre holders, might be lighter and stiffer. A screw on blade would facilitate the use of spacers to curve the blade too... Like Barry says (I think) the technical aspect of boot and blade dictates the technique needed. With other technical solutions different ways of skating might appear. The idea of DPing might change significantly with a technical change in the boot and/or blade. Usually a track is smooth and clean, and on long track at least one runs a low risk of clashing blades. With esoteric solutions one might just replace the blades. You see, I am just learning the hokus pokus of blade sharpening, and about the only change I can see in long track over the last one hundred years has been the clap, and using diamond stones. Ok, I suppose going from wood to metal blade fixtures was a big change too! :-)
inlina	Re: Blade contact with the ice?	#10	[-]
Posts: 122 (12/08/05 03:37:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hey Frankiln (yeah, I'm here too!) I'm fairly sure that there is research out there on the blade/ice interface. I found some when I was looking for journal articles on clap skates years ago, but I ignored it. I do remember at around that time, Easton released a hockey skate with a blade that conducted heat into the interface (from the foot??) to melt the ice so you could skate faster. I don't know if it was just a gimmick though (I've seen enough of them!), but they dont use it anymore from what I can tell. CG

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Blade contact with the ice?

Blade contact with the ice?

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